Episode #1035
What really changes when a man stops pretending he’s fine and finally asks for support?
In this honest conversation, Doug sits down with a couple from the UK to talk about what it actually looks like to grow as a man, a husband and a father.
They cover the shift from feeling isolated and emotionally shut down to building real friendships, taking the lead at home and showing up more fully in marriage and parenting.
You’ll hear what it’s like to go from carrying everything alone to feeling part of a community. You’ll also hear the wife’s perspective on how the change impacted her, their relationship and their kids.
This episode is for any man who feels stuck, disconnected or just tired of trying to figure it all out on his own.
If you want to understand what’s really broken in your marriage and get a clear path to fix it, check out the free training at https://fixmarriage.thepowerfulman.com/scales. It walks you through what’s going wrong and how to turn things around without guesswork.
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Transcription
Steve 0:00
Gone from feeling very friendless and lonely to feeling like I’ve got a great community of people. You know? I see why you call it a Brotherhood.
Jane 0:07
Becoming a parent for me was the kind of catalyst to go, I don’t want to pass this on. Actually, it’d be very easy to pass this on.
Doug Holt 0:16
I’ve had men standing in front of me crying for the first time as an adult and feeling love actually feeling love for the first time in their lives. And they’re in their 40s or 50s.
Steve 0:25
The kind of the leap of faith for me has been it’s okay to ask, and when you ask, great things happen.
Doug Holt 0:42
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the TPM show. This one is going to be extremely special. I have an amazing couple here with me. We have the King of Cheese and his queen joining us from the UK. So very, very excited to have them on board. Guys, thanks for being here.
Steve 1:00
Hey Doug, thanks for having us. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Yeah.
Doug Holt 1:03
Absolutely has. And it’s only been a short time, but you know, you’ve got yourselves here, obviously, have the kids here, so thank you.
Speaker 1 1:12
It’s amazing. Thank you so much. What a place really, really special here.
Doug Holt 1:16
Good. Well, I’m glad. I mean, that’s where we got the place. When Tim and I first bought it originally, we were thinking, oh, we’ll just rent it out. You know, business, people make money on the business. And we both sat down, we thought, you know what, let’s open this place up so families can come here. This should be or our goal is to make it a place of healing. That sounds like an overused word. I don’t want to take anything away from that, but a place where joy could happen. Maybe that’s a better way of saying it. So when it’s open and you reached out, Steve, and I was like, absolutely.
Steve 1:48
Yeah, for sure. And I think we’re midway through our holiday here in the US, and this is our second stop, and I think we’ve all felt that this has been absolutely what we’ve described somewhere to come and relax and heal. I know how special it is, because I’ve been here a couple of times before, and I really wanted Jane and the kids to come too. And we had a bit of a fractious time in San Francisco before we came here, and just coming here was like everyone just having a big breathe out and, yeah, just relax. And I love that I’ve seen my family just melt into this place and enjoy it. So thank you for letting us stay, because it’s a beautiful place. It really is very special.
Doug Holt 2:26
Absolutely. I was talking to the film man, who you know, Jane. You may have heard stories about him also in the UK, and I was letting him know that your family was here. And his response was, “Man, I got to get my family out there.”
Jane 2:38
And when you said joy, that’s exactly what we’ve seen on the kids’ faces here just moments that we’ll never, ever forget. You know, those things that are imprinted in your mind for the rest of your life? So for that, so grateful for the opportunity to come. So lucky.
Doug Holt 2:55
Yeah. Oh, it’s funny, Jane. I’ve been hearing about you for five years now.
Jane 3:00
Oh, God.
Doug Holt 3:01
Good things. It’s been great to get a chance to meet you, and we’ve only spent a little bit of time together, but it’s been phenomenal. My wife was raving about you on the way home. She really enjoyed your conversations. I don’t even know what you guys were talking about, but she said, “I really enjoyed them.” And she’s not one to hold back, so that’s nice. Yeah, and I’m not saying this just to make you feel good, but you can as a parent, you can tell when other people are raising good kids, right? And both of your kids are lovely. I had a lot of fun with them, even joking with your son, which I thought he knew I was joking when I said, “Have you seen these sharks yet?” Overheard him ask you about it. I felt that was like, okay, it’s an eight-year-old.
Jane 3:44
It’s exactly the same as I do with him. So he’s used to it. Questions everything, because he knows.
Doug Holt 3:50
That feeling for you guys. Steven, I met you five years ago now at this point, right? Almost five years ago?
Steve 3:55
Yeah.
Doug Holt 3:56
Wales. Four and a half. In Wales for your Alpha Reset , where you did at the end of your Alpha Reset , and no one’s done this since you did a cheese tasting. I don’t know if you know this, Jane. Maybe you do. He did a cheese tasting, and along with another gentleman, Ian, did a wine pairing with the cheese. Wasn’t with the cheese, per se, but he did. He shared a bunch of wine with us, and it was such a festive occasion.
Steve 4:20
It was great. I love doing that. It was kind of I think it was Lee Jack dropped me in it when he said, “You’re gonna get up and actually talk about this.” I’d said I’d bring some cheese along, because that’s generally what I do when I go places, to add to the food. But then it was wonderful. I love doing that. You know, it’s what I see as my sort of strength in my business, as I love talking and sharing cheese and food with people. And it was great to showcase, particularly because a lot of the other guys there were from the States, yeah, and maybe hadn’t experienced something like that before, certainly not with the stuff we had. But it was great fun. Really enjoyed it.
Doug Holt 4:53
Well, you were in your element, and I was one of those guys that hadn’t experienced it. And it’s something I was interested in, but, I mean, I just don’t know that much about cheese. And I’m also one of those people I don’t remember sports players’ names, I don’t remember wines or the cheese. I remember the experience, though, and I remember in detail, you standing behind that table and just shining. You know, it was awesome to see.
Steve 5:19
Thank you. Yeah, I can remember it very vividly too. It was, it was really good fun, yeah. And I’m like you I can’t remember sports teams or whatever, but cheese, for some reason, seems to just stick in my head. That knowledge is just there, which means I’m doing the right thing.
Doug Holt 5:32
That’s why you’re the King of Cheese.
Jane 5:35
And actually, following on from that, because you mentioned Ian, and then you ended up doing a couple of tastings with him and all of that kind of and that’s what one of the things I get for Stephen from The Powerful Man is the friendships he’s made. Because throughout knowing Stephen, that’s something he’s struggled with, if you don’t mind me saying. And I was always saying, you know, I have a lot of female friends. You need some male friends. You need friends to do stuff with, go out with. And I think you’ve really, really that’s, it’s been a big part of it, hasn’t it? In terms of the experience for you, making those connections. And you’ve gone on to form really close friendships with some of the men in the program.
Steve 6:19
And that’s, it’s worldwide that’s wonderful. Which means going to see some people is a bit of a long journey and expensive. But yeah, I’ve done some great stuff with Ian, with wine, some amazing stuff with Chef Gregory as well.
Doug Holt 6:31
Awesome. Two great guys.
Steve 6:33
We’ve all just really vibed off food and drink, and it’s great, yeah. But yes, so many other people in TPM. And yeah, you’re right. I’ve gone from feeling very friendless and lonely to feeling like I’ve got a great community of people. You know, I see why you call it Brotherhood.
Doug Holt 6:48
Well, yeah, it’s so interesting you mentioned this, Jane. In the episode I did before this, we fielded questions from men that write in, and one of the top questions we get and one I answered was, gosh, like, I don’t know how to make friends, right? Because as men, it’s hard. And especially, I think, I’d love to hear your guys’s take on this, both of you. I think, as nice guys we were talking about this before recording nice guys, it’s bad, it’s easy for bad guys to try to take advantage of them, right? And so the trust goes down. And as trust as men erodes, I think we just go internal. We go into our cave, so to speak. And by going into our cave, we don’t put ourselves out there as much. And it’s harder for us to meet people. Because I know I used to have kind of a story of you know, it was more of a subconscious story, but in retrospect are they going to take advantage of me, right? And that was something that would prevent me from making friends or walking up. Or I’d go into maybe, maybe a party or something like that, and I would stand there waiting for people to come up and talk to me instead of going out, putting myself out there. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that.
Steve 7:59
I feel that too. I think you’re right about sort of withdrawing into yourself. I feel like a few years ago, I was just like, well, you feel like you become very self-reliant and, well, I’m okay. I don’t need other people, yeah? And that sort of whole lone-wolfing thing. But what I’ve found from the past five years or so of being with TPM is that it’s okay to ask, yeah. And if you ask, you get help, and people don’t judge you, and they’re not going to take advantage of you. And that’s really helped me, because just the very fact that we’re sitting here today, this holiday, I’d imagined coming to the Ranch with the family for a couple of years now. So I kind of manifest, you know manifestation, whatever you want to call it but the action that backed it up was me actually asking you if we could come. And a couple of years ago, I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing that, yeah. And even when I did, the sort of little shadow voice in my head was going, No, Doug’s gonna say no, he’s gonna why would he do that? But actually, the kind of the leap of faith for me has been it’s okay to ask, and when you ask, great things happen, yeah. Because, yeah, many great things have happened as a result of that. And this is just one of this is probably possibly the greatest in many ways, because I’ve got my whole family here, yeah. But yeah, that thing about being open and being able to share with other men the problems that you’re having, whether it’s in your business or your personal life, or your health or whatever, and to feel, I’ve got a group of people that yeah, they might pull your leg about it, because that’s kind of what we do, yeah but there’s understanding and there’s resonance, and there’s advice and support. And that is, that’s huge, absolutely huge. And it really means I don’t just feel lonely in terms of not having friends. I feel that I’m not lonely because there are people I can call in the middle of the night if I have to. Yeah, which, given that most of you guys are in the States, and we’ve got a time difference, that happens a lot, fair enough. But yeah, you know, even then it’s just and I know talking to some of the other guys in the UK, they’ve said that they kind of let some of their pre-TPM friends slide, because all they want to do is drink beer and talk about, uh, football or whatever. Yeah, they don’t want to get into the actual nitty-gritty and the nuts and bolts about their lives. And it’s so important, yeah, to get into that, because life isn’t perfect and it’s difficult and you can’t sort it on your own. That’s the thing you can’t. Sorry.
Jane 10:18
I was just gonna say, as Stephen’s wife as well, I found there was a lot of pressure on me then to be this, arrange the social life, to be the one. And I remember specifically once going to a friend’s birthday party, and Stephen didn’t know many people there, and I didn’t either, and he kind of hung in the corner. And I constantly felt this kind of pressure to be up for him and to make up for his shyness or whatever. And that was hard because I’ve always been quite sociable. I’ve always been quite confident on the outside, but to have to carry somebody as well is hard work. So when he started to have this social life and have these people he could talk to, and it wasn’t all on my shoulders, that was a freeing up for me. And actually, I think that’s helped me to develop deeper friendships with my female friends, because I’ve been released from the obligation to be everything for Stephen, and that has been—in the last few years—I definitely feel like my friendships have deepened too, and that has to be part of it, you know.
Steve 11:37
So there’s a lot about taking the mental load that we, as men, place on our women without realizing it. I saw a thing the other day on social media, the thing about the guy says, you know, he called it, “Where’s the scissors?” Where, you know, I’m looking for the scissors at home. I go, “Jane, where are the scissors? Where are the scissors?” And it’s the whole nice guy thing around, “What do we want for dinner? You know, let’s get takeout.” And I’ll go, Jane will say to me, “What do you like? What would you like?” Rather than going, okay—and again, it’s overcoming a fear and a confidence for me to say, “I’d like pizza.” But my worry was always, we’ll get pizza, and it’s not nice, and Jane will blame me because it was my choice, rather than actually going, “Okay, we’ll get that. I made a decision. I took one little tiny piece of that mental load off your plate, just led a little bit, and just made that decision.” And if it wasn’t good, it wasn’t good, and generally it’s fine. But there’s so much about that I’ve learned about not loading so much mentally onto you. And there’s a way to go. There’s always a way to go, but we’re always learning.
Doug Holt 12:44
No relationship is perfect all the time, right? It’s progress. I was gonna ask you that exact question, Jane, so it was perfect because I’ve heard so much from—well, I’ve heard from my wife, but also from the other wives—of like, the mental load they have to carry for the guy. I’ve never heard the scissors analogy, but that’s perfect. You know, a lot of—I think a lot of men have almost become, I’m not saying you, Stephen, but a lot of men, I’d love to hear Jane’s perspective on this—a lot of men have almost become grown children to their wives. Because she’s like, okay, now I gotta take care of the kids. I gotta take care of dinner. And you’re leaving your clothes on the floor, just—you know, are you randomly hoping they fly into the laundry or what’s going on? And now you want me to plan vacation? You want me to plan this? I’ve heard this so many times. For women, it’s like, I feel like I have a grown child here.
Jane 13:33
In-house. I definitely have. We’ve—I mean, probably most of our disagreements are related to me feeling like I’m carrying more. And there is, I could write a list of the things that I do, but it’s also the emotional weight of a family. So, you know, if the kids are upset, or if there’s something going on at school, I feel like it’s my responsibility to be the emotional support for them and to be the one that finds the way through and talks to the other mums about it. And so I think there’s a lot that women do that’s invisible. I think their husbands don’t understand when they suddenly have a meltdown and they’re like, “I’m going crazy here,” because what I felt was I couldn’t have anything outside of the home for me. And so I’ve just finished a master’s, and that put an extreme amount of pressure on our family, because it took some of the time and resource I had away from the family, and often I felt there was nothing to replace that. And so then there was a gap, and it wasn’t being done, and that was incredibly stressful. And so I think, I think just generally—and I talked to my friends about this—there is, there’s, people call it this mental load, and people have been talking about it. It’s emotional as well as actually the tasks of doing the jobs and thinking about, when do the kids need new school shoes? I need to take them to the dentist. I need to take them to the doctors. I need to get that sorted out. I need to speak to this mum about a play date. All of those kind of things. And then husbands will come home and go, “Oh, I had such a busy day,” and they’ve had a busy day. And then perhaps they don’t want to take on the childcare and stuff in the home because they’re tired. But if you’ve been at home doing that all day, you need a break. From talking to most of my female friends, that is the biggest problem that they have in their relationship—the inability for either side to see where the other person’s stresses are and to value their time alone. I don’t think women get much time on their own, yep, especially with young kids. So sometimes, and I have to be very honest, when Stephen started the TPM program and he was like, “I’m gonna go out and do my breathing now,” and I’m like, we’ve got this, that, or the other, and you’re taking time out, and I don’t have the space to take time out. But what I think I’ve learned from Stephen is that I have to create that space myself too, rather than waiting for the space to just suddenly appear.
Doug Holt 16:20
Have you noticed any changes in Stephen over the past five years?
Jane 16:26
Oh. And in fact, when he was talking about coming back, the most marked change was when he came back from Wales. That time, he kind of floated in through the door, and he just looked like a different person. There was a kind of serenity, and he just felt lighter. One of the things I would say is sometimes he’ll go to these things, and he’ll feel like it’s consistency sometimes and keeping that momentum going, which I think is where your program differs in that he’s got constant coaching, people to talk to. The catch-ups that you have are definitely—not always, it’s not perfect. Like you say, no relationship’s perfect, and no change is a linear path either, is it? So sometimes I can, I’ll say to him, “You need to go back on one of those.” But, you know, I don’t know what you feel.
Steve 17:28
I agree. I mean, yes, it is. It’s that constant journey, isn’t it? And there’s consistency, and that is one of my—I know it’s one of my weaknesses. But it’s good, as Jane says, to have everybody there to be able to go, “Come on, let’s keep going.” And you know, sometimes you feel like you fall back a bit, but you don’t fall back as far as you were. I think it’s really important as well in our relationship that we’re both doing our own work on things as well. You know, I think if it was one of us, you know, really wanted to improve and be better… But one of the things that I really love and value so much about Jane is that we’re both—we don’t want to settle. We want better for each of us and for each other. Beautiful. And I think some of the stuff that I learn here, I can share with Jane, and that helps her, and some things that she’s learning on the things that she does share the other way. And we kind of go, you know, we’re going along together, which is good.
Jane 18:19
One of the things I’d say about doing that in the UK is it’s not—I think in America, it seems more accepted that you take help, that you have a therapist, that you work on yourself. In the UK, I think, when Stephen talks to maybe guys in the UK who aren’t, there’s a real barrier. There’s a real, like, “Oh, you know.” And it’s the same with me. I’ve noticed, particularly within family and friends, when I’ve said, “Oh, you know, I’m seeing a therapist,” it’s kind of, “Well, how long you gonna be seeing that for? And what’s wrong with you?” You know? And so I think it’s quite bold of both of us, yes, to take that, because it’s not really part of British culture to ask for help. There’s still very much a kind of grin and bear it, get on with life, and it’s weak to ask for help or to see a therapist or to do a coaching program. And I’ve got friends who are coaches in the UK who struggle to get clients, because I think there’s a real, “I’m not paying for that. Why would I want to pay for that?” But I see, you know, the money that I’ve spent on therapy and self-help, and, you know, I wouldn’t have balked at going out for a night out and spending that kind of money on drinking and eating out. Why wouldn’t I spend that on helping myself and make myself feel better, or, you know, try to improve our marriage or a relationship, or the relationship that we have with our children or a wider family? I don’t see it. But I think it definitely is—there’s a big culture difference between America and the UK.
Steve 20:04
So many men in the UK, where I sort of hear them, see them, either first or second hand, talk about some of their issues. And I think you could just get so much out of something like this. But I’ve tried to convince a few—maybe my persuasion skills aren’t so good—but it’s just like, if only they could get them over the line into the room. But also, I think Jane touched on something really important there about our kids, that, you know, the work we do is benefit to our relationship. It makes our marriage stronger. But what I see is it makes our kids happier, and hopefully they won’t be as messed up as we are when they get to our age and won’t need this kind of, you know, this kind of method, or whatever. They are happier when we are firing. They are absolutely on fire.
Jane 20:52
But even if they do—you know, even if they do need therapy, or, you know, I think anybody needs it. I think you need help. Life is hard, isn’t it? There are so many challenges. I think you do need help sometimes from people who are experienced, have seen things, or have trained in a certain method. And I would hope that, you know, our kids would see that we do this, and they would feel then comfortable later on in life to be able to ask for the same help, or to go down the same path.
Steve 21:25
For sure. Certainly. Think about it like, you know, look at my father, who doesn’t really understand what this is, whereas I see, like, you know, Rufus, my little boy, and my other two sons, Patrick and Roy, they see me doing these things, and they were very open about it, and they can see what’s going on. So they’re not going to be so close to it, hopefully, in the future.
Doug Holt 21:44
We talk about at TPM, this idea of being a lighthouse. I don’t know if you’ve heard this, Jane, and some people listening probably haven’t heard about it, but we describe to the men that, hey, your wife’s on a ship by herself, and there’s a storm going on, right? And what a lot of men do is—we want men to be a lighthouse, to shine brightly, to help somebody, in this case, the wife, who’s got a lot of stuff going on, get to shore safely, right? But the problem is, a lot of these men turn the lighthouse off when it’s inconvenient. And so how could a ship at sea in a storm trust the lighthouse if it’s turning on and off when it’s convenient or not convenient? And I see you two as the lighthouses maybe in the UK for letting people know, like, hey, we’re normal people going through a normal life, and we found something that works for us, independently and collectively. And I think—because when I think, when I hear you guys talk about it, I’m thinking, because I’ve been coaching for a long time in one way or another, a long time, but it wasn’t always like this in the States. Like, I wouldn’t say five years ago, maybe more than five years ago, it sounds very similar to what you’re talking about. A life coach was like a weird thing, right? Where now it’s just very accepted. People have—I’ve got two therapists that I’m working with and a coach. And it’s normal in some places. The US is a big country, so there are also places where it’s abnormal. But I think just like you two are shining examples. First, you’re doing it for yourselves, which is the most important, and your children are benefiting, which is my guiding light, right? You know, it just warms my heart to see my kids. They’re gonna repeat things—the bad stuff and the good stuff—and I’d like them to repeat one of the good stuff. So, I mean, you guys are just shining examples for everybody else, lighthouses for your friends and family. And maybe they don’t come around now, but they’re watching.
Jane 23:39
And actually, becoming a parent was for me—I’d had some therapy before—but becoming a parent for me was the kind of catalyst to go, I don’t want to pass this on. Actually, it’d be very easy to pass this on, and it’s hard work to change perhaps the way you’ve been brought up, and to change the narrative of your story so that your children see something. And, you know, a lot of people talk about trauma as well, but also to shield your children from any trauma that you might have experienced, and not to pass that down too—which is exhausting work, you know—but to me, that is the most important thing I can do as a parent, and I feel very strongly about that. And there are lots of other things that intertwine with that, that I feel very strongly about protecting my children from, because I think that’s our job—to protect them and make them feel safe and to allow them to explore the world and to see the good things. And we’re definitely doing that here, aren’t we? Absolutely. I just had the vision then of my daughter and my son on your pond, literally half an hour ago, canoeing, and the looks on their faces was just—and they just, they took to it like ducks to water. I know, excuse the pun, but…
Doug Holt 25:14
Hey guys, I just want to share something with you. I’m sure we can both agree that in order to fix something, you need to know what’s broken. And not only need to know what’s broken, but a step-by-step methodology on how you can fix it. That’s the easiest way to do it, right? Otherwise, you’re gonna be toiling with things. That’s why I created a free training—a training that not only shows you how you got to where you are, where your relationship is missing that love, respect, admiration, and even intimacy that it used to have, but how you get it back. How do you retain that where your wife’s looking at you the same way she used to look at you when she said, “I do”? You know, I don’t know about you, but for me, when my wife looks at me like I’m her man, that feels like I can conquer the world. And I want that for you. Simply go over to thepowerfulman.com/scales. That’s thepowerfulman.com/scales, and I have a free video training for you. You can just click play and see if this resonates for you. Now, back to the podcast.
Steve 26:16
It’s about time and space, isn’t it? And it’s not even about them having, you know, stuff or endless stimulation. Just having time as a family for them to just feel free and… wonderful, wonderful time.
Doug Holt 26:28
Well, you guys provide a safe environment for them, right? To explore. I think that’s kind of what you’re talking about here, is they feel emotionally and physically safe. So, I mean, you know, that’s my goal, is not to pass down my trauma—the stuff that I think kids learn unconsciously. We learn to be adults by watching our parents and what our environment was like, right? Unless we do the hard work, as you said, Jane, and try to unlearn it and find a better way of doing it. And something I always think about is, you know, doing the work is hard, but living the other way is hard. So which hard are you going to choose? You know, I find doing the work is much better in the long run for me.
Jane 27:07
And it’s like you say, it’s not always perfect, and our kids do see us in moments of stress. And, like, we talked about being in San Francisco, you know, I had a bit of a meltdown in San Francisco, and I had that meltdown in front of my children. And I could spend a lot of time feeling really guilty about that, but I think it’s important for them to see that we’re human beings too, and that we don’t always get it right. Because I think if you present that kind of “Mum and Dad are always right, and they always know,” it creates a kind of perfectionism that they can never live up to. And so I’m quite keen also for our kids to see us in our worst moments, you know, and as long as we can then explain to them what happened—”Mommy was feeling really tired and stressed”—then I think they can also see the difference between me and Stephen in San Francisco and here. And they have definitely relaxed into it.
Steve 28:14
I agree. So that’s important for our kids to see that unfiltered view of life, because I remember a lot growing up of things happening behind closed doors, and when you asked a question, it was like, “Oh, that’s not for you to know. That’s grown-ups’ issues,” or whatever—you know, just to brush things away. When kids are smart, they know stuff is going on. You can’t just go, “Oh, everything’s fine. No, it’s not for you. When you’re bigger, you’ll find out.” You know, we are on purpose quite unfiltered. See, as you say, warts and all at times, because there’s no point in doing it the other way. They’re only going to find out later down the line.
Doug Holt 28:51
How do you guys handle cleaning it up at that point? It’s something my wife and I are very conscious of as well. Do you have a way that you two work together or individually on how you clean up those messes, so to speak?
Steve 29:03
Good question. I think we tend to work together on those with the kids if there’s been a blow-up, and just be very open and frank about maybe why we felt the way we have and why what’s happened has happened. I don’t think we’ve got a particular method.
Jane 29:18
No, I think it’s just our approach to life in general—to be quite open. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying sorry to your kids either. And I think a lot of parents might think that that’s a weakness and that you’re showing weakness, but I’m very keen on saying, “I’m really sorry I shouted,” or, “I’m really sorry I said that to you,” or, “I didn’t mean it, but I was feeling like this.” And, you know, sometimes I get stressed and worried and anxious about things, just like you do, and they understand those emotions because they have them themselves.
Steve 29:58
Yes, I think what’s important is to clean up really quickly as well. When I was a kid, I remember my mum was very good at that. She would explode and, you know, shout and yell, throw things at times, but then she’d be very quick to come around to me and my sister and circle back: “Okay, I’m sorry I did that because of this, this, and this.” My dad, on the other hand, would get very sulky and closed down. And at one point, I remember he didn’t speak to me or my sister for about a week after something had happened. So you kind of, as a kid, you’re left in limbo—like, what’s going on here? And I felt that’s definitely affected my relationship with him over time. I didn’t feel I could connect with the guy, whereas my mum was very much—it would all go fire and hell and everything, and then she’d be like, “Okay, this happened.” So I felt I learned more about emotions and that from her. So it’s really important to me that we kind of clean these things up. Because with my dad, you know, you go into a week-long sulk, you go way beyond the point at which you can sit down and go, “Okay, let’s talk about this.” It gets built up into something bigger than it maybe was in the first place. So for me, it’s important to clean these things up fast.
Doug Holt 31:04
As you said, the kids are smart. They’re going to make up stories—whether you teach them or they’re going to make it up.
Jane 31:10
And sometimes now our daughter in particular, she’s very emotionally intelligent, and she’s very attuned to her own feelings and to the feelings of others. She will say, “Well, Mama, you just felt stressed or angry.” So she’s got it already before, you know, before you even need to say anything. And you can say, “Well, I did, actually. That’s how I felt.” I think our son—he finds feelings and emotions more challenging. And it’s interesting having twins and watching how they develop. Before I had twins, I was very much like, “Oh, it’s all nurture, it’s all nurture.” But actually, there are some intrinsic differences between boys and girls, men and women, I feel, and I see it play out with our children. My daughter’s much more open to expressing her emotions and her feelings. My son finds it harder. They’re there—the feelings are there—but to get them out, to explain them, or to… I don’t know if you agree, and I wouldn’t like to make generalizations about all men and women, but on the whole, in my experience, men find it harder to express. And I don’t know whether that’s just the way that they’ve been socialized or whether it’s something more innate.
Steve 32:33
I think it kind of links back to what we were saying before about what I get from TPM and the men here—that feeling okay with talking about feelings. And I think maybe for our son, it’s that, as he starts to get a bit bigger, he realizes it is okay to talk about stuff. Maybe it’s difficult because his friends maybe aren’t doing that. But just for me, this is the whole point of it, isn’t it really? To show them—if I do nothing more, if I can model to him that I’m comfortable with talking about how I’m feeling and what’s going on for me, there’s more of a chance that he’ll do the same than if I don’t.
Doug Holt 33:08
I mean, that’s it. You’re modeling, right? At the end of the day, both of you guys are. I see when I have a son and a daughter—different ages—but you can see in their schoolmates the differences. And girls growing up so much faster, emotionally especially. And then I’m trained to listen to people. Steven, you’re using the word “think” a lot, and you’re using the word “feel” a lot for this conversation, right? And I think that is just natural for most people—bell-shaped curve—and it’s all generalities. And at the same time, I think those generalities play out. Like, you know, 80% of the time, women are, I feel, much more in tune with their emotions and the emotions of people around them, whereas men can be more with blinders on about some of those things, focused. And our guys are in their heads so much that’s the hardest thing—trying to get them out of their heads. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had men standing in front of me crying for the first time as an adult and feeling love—actually feeling love for the first time in their lives. And they’re in their 40s or 50s.
Jane 34:14
And that’s hard, that’s sad, isn’t it? We shouldn’t have to go through life feeling like that. I think a lot of people do—men and women. But it interests me. I want to pick up on something you said about women feeling the emotions of others. I can tell if Stephen, when he walks through the door, I know what kind of mood he’s in. I know what kind of day he’s had before he even opens his mouth. And sometimes I wish that he could have the same sense about me. I feel like I have to explain how I’m feeling. And you don’t always know yourself or want to. You don’t always—sometimes you want your partner to just know you. Yes. And so I think sometimes, if you’re a person that feels that, you expect that other people can, and they can’t, and so you have to make adjustments for that in your own mind. And I have to realize that Stephen needs to be told in certain terms what’s going on.
Steve 35:22
And we kind of, you know, we developed some tools—some that we borrowed from other people—like the idea of just sort of sharing with each other at the start of the day, kind of on a scale of one to 10, how we’re feeling in terms of energy and emotional stuff like that. So one morning, Jane might go, “I’m at about a two or three.” Or I might go, “I’m at a four or five.” So I know that Jane’s feeling less energized for the day, so I can make an allowance for that. And that’s a way of you sort of telling me where you’re at on a level that we can then kind of move together with. But it’s something that, it’s something I, you know, I’m learning. Not always getting it right. It’s a journey, isn’t it?
Doug Holt 36:02
But I mean, Jane, you have obviously a lot of girlfriends. You said, how many of their husbands are trying to learn?
Jane 36:08
Very few, yes. You know, and actually, when I’ve spoken to some of my female friends about this program, they’re like, “Oh my God, I wish my husband would get on that.” But I think you get in your silo, don’t you? You’re in your life. You’re busy with work, you’re busy. And a lot of the time, I think men who have their own businesses and who have that kind of pressure, they feel like they don’t have the time to make room for this. But actually, in the long run, making that time could benefit their business later on. And I don’t know whether I’m explaining that very well, but I think when you’re so head down in your own business, and you’ve got maybe money problems, financial problems, problems in your relationship, the idea that you can just go, “Actually, I’m going to go away on a week’s retreat with some other men,” you know? Because when Stephen first mentioned it to me, I was like, “You’re what? At this point in our lives, you’re going to do that?” But actually I had to just trust him, and also had to allow him—it’s his life, like I’ve alluded to earlier. It was hard at first to see him taking that time out of the home, out of his business, and thinking and having to trust that it was going to make a difference. Because that’s hard, isn’t it? You don’t know—he could have started out on this journey, and it could have led him on a very, very different path. But it’s been really good for him. And then, if it’s good for Stephen, it’s good for me, and it’s good for the kids.
Steve 37:50
There’s something about that thing of realizing that it’s okay to not be day and night in your head on your own business. Because, you know, the very fact that we’re on over a two-and-a-half week trip away. And in the past we’ve done this—this is the fourth year we’ve done this over the summer—and there’s a time, maybe about five or six years ago, where I wouldn’t have dreamt of even taking a week away. We got married 10 years ago, and our honeymoon was, what, four days? Partly because I felt I couldn’t take that time away from my business. Now, what a mistake. But now I’m like, “Okay, well, we can do this.” And partly, I’ve got a team I can trust. But also, there are more important things, and this is the most important thing. So it’s worth putting that time into.
Jane 38:36
And you will go back to your business more refreshed, re-energized, with ideas.
Steve 38:41
So it’s, you know, I’ve seen the folly of that—blinkers on, head down. Work harder, work harder. You can get more by doing less.
Doug Holt 38:50
Definitely. I hear that all the time with the guys, right? Most of the men come in because they want to have a better relationship with their partner. It’s so interesting to me because the name is so off-putting to a lot of people—The Powerful Man—and yet it’s all a bunch of guys who love their partner and they’re willing to do the work to do it. And a lot of the guys find out, like, oh, okay, if I take time away, and they’re actually talking to other businessmen—so of course they’re talking business—but they come back with better ideas, more refreshing. And at the end of the day, I’m going to guess when you guys are sitting on the porch—and Stephen, I’ll talk to you—you’re reflecting on life. You’re not thinking about, you know, 2025 and the cheese business. You’re thinking about your kids running through the sprinklers, or absolutely, or things like those kinds of core memories are what really matters. As a business person myself, we get lost in those sometimes.
Steve 39:45
Absolutely, I couldn’t agree more. These are the memories that you look back on.
Doug Holt 39:50
I sold myself a story that I was doing it all for them as I was working so hard, and then realizing, wait a minute. I’m doing it so I can spend time with my family, yet I’m not spending time with my family. Who am I really doing all this for? No, my wife never actually asked me to do all—
Jane 40:14
This conversation. And I, you know, my father had a family business, passed down from his father. My great-great-grandfather started the business, and he worked and worked and worked, and he loved work. I’m not saying he didn’t, and I’m not saying he didn’t enjoy his. But when he was 65, he died of a heart attack, and he had said, “I’m now going to retire and I want to spend time with my grandsons.” And, you know, that was lost. We didn’t go on family holidays—we went on short family holidays. We never took three weeks out, or we would go for a week somewhere, if we could, and he missed out on a lot. My mum raised us pretty much on her own. He would come home for an evening meal and then go back out to work again. And in the early days, he was working away from home. And, you know, I have a lot of fond memories of my father, but not enough—not enough time. And when he died very suddenly, that was what I wanted. I’d wanted more time with my dad. It didn’t matter that we had a big house and that we had lots of money and a successful business. I was very proud of those things. But actually, what I wanted was my dad. So, and I can speak the same for my siblings. I’d like to run through the sprinklers, and my dad be standing there watching me and taking a ride on his shoulders—those kind of things. Simple, yes. Doesn’t have to cost money. It’s just time, isn’t it? It’s just time with each other.
Steve 42:02
That’s the most valuable thing, isn’t it? Together anyway, for this whole thing—just work, work, retire, then have fun, then have the time. And as the case of your dad and so many others, they get the Robert Duvall. So it’s, do it this way around. I think it’s better.
Doug Holt 42:17
I couldn’t agree with you guys more. I mean, I think it’s what I’m looking for. I think it’s amazing—in the term amazing—that the two of you are both doing work individually. Congratulations on your Masters, getting that.
Jane 42:34
Well, I haven’t, I don’t know whether I’ve passed yet.
Doug Holt 42:37
You’re obviously brilliant. So, I mean, congratulations on doing that, letting Steven go when it wasn’t lost on me. Doing the hard math in my head—you had two three-year-old twins when he takes off. Going, “Where are you going?” “I’m going in Wales.” “What are you doing?” “I don’t know. Who you gonna be with?” “I don’t know.”
Steve 42:59
Bunch of guys on the Internet. What could possibly go wrong?
Doug Holt 43:06
So kudos to you, and for doing your own work. That is one of the most requested things the men have after they’ve started our program. One is, my wife’s interested and can’t find something. But, and two is, how do I help her move on? So huge kudos to you. And again, amazement to both of you. You stepping in in 2020, early 2020, and joining the TPM program and taking blind trust. And that’s not lost on me as well. You got a guy from Leeds and this weird American guy, you know?
Steve 43:40
There is something that drew me in, and I’m really, I’m absolutely delighted that I did, and I’m really grateful to you and to Tim and everyone else. It’s because it’s been one of the, definitely one of the most transformative experiences of my life. Really has, and continues to be so.
Doug Holt 43:54
Well, I mean, you contribute as well, right? And I’d love to say that what makes TPM great is the world-class coaching. And it’s not. It is the men like you, and the men like Ian or Phil, or—I mean, I can name names all day. As you know, there was an event at the Ranch last week, 13 guys, and they were clamoring to hear about you and talk to you. And one of them, I think, was thinking about changing their flight so they could stay an extra day to meet you and the kids as well. It’s the men. It’s the guys that make it what it is.
Steve 44:29
Absolutely. I was—it was frustrating when we saw the way that that event came in, and we were here a few days later. But that’s life.
Doug Holt 44:37
Absolutely is, and there’ll be more opportunities.
Steve 44:41
I mean, and I said, yes, there’s no—you know, I could have tried to rearrange things to do that as well, but I’ll have more opportunities to see those guys. I won’t have another opportunity to be here with Jane and our kids the ages they are, and that’s the priority for me.
Doug Holt 44:53
100%. I love it. Maybe one last question, or maybe not. I tend to ask a lot of questions. I’m curious from you, Jane, since I have you here, what, if any, changes have you seen in Stephen over these last five years?
Jane 45:10
Ooh, I’ve seen a lot of changes. Actually, I think, like I said before, the fact that he has this network now has brought—I think it’s brought him a lot of confidence. I think it’s brought him—he seems to have more sense of himself. So he is more confident to ask for things. He’s more confident to tell me how he’s feeling. Before Stephen came on the program, we were really struggling. We had two young children, and I used to say to Stephen, “You’re a brick wall. I can’t get through to you. You’re a brick wall.” And that, I’m not saying it’s not there all the time, but it’s definitely a lot better. I know him better. I know what he wants, I know how he’s feeling. And sometimes I’ll say, “You don’t tell me how you’re feeling,” but he does a lot more than he did prior to coming on the program. I see a spark in him that I didn’t see before. And when he comes back, particularly when he comes back from spending time on the retreats or with other TPM members, he is full of ideas. He has—I think it’s created a space for him to be more creative, to be more enthused. His business ideas and the way he’s led his business has changed. Five years ago, he was very much like, “I’ve got the cheese shop, I’ve got a couple of events, and that’s what I’m doing.” And it was kind of day in, day out. Now he’s doing talks to other people. He’s traveling all over the country and doing big events. He’s coming up with new ideas for the shop, and also he’s meeting—he’s got the confidence to go out and meet more people. So he’s networking more with people in the industry. He’s going to meet cheesemakers. He’s taking trips away to do that kind of thing. None of that was happening before. So I ultimately, I think he just feels like he has more control over his life. And I didn’t like the name The Powerful Man—I have to put my hand up—but he has got, he is more powerful. He’s got more power over his life and the way he wants to take it, and he’s more decisive about the things he wants to do—at home, with the business. This holiday is an example of that. Before we did TPM, it would have been me saying, “Should we go here? I’ll book this. I’ll book that.” But he sorts things now. So I know I’ve said a lot in that, but there’s an overall sense that he is more in control of his own life, and he has a path that he wants to go down, and he’s going to make things happen. And that’s the difference.
Doug Holt 48:20
I’d imagine that makes you feel freer and more secure too.
Jane 48:25
And it took a lot for me to trust Stephen again, but that trust is coming back because I do feel safer that he will step up to those things, whereas I didn’t before. I felt I had to lead. The burden was all on my shoulders. But I can relax into that a bit now, and I wouldn’t have been able to do my Masters if I hadn’t felt that. So it does give me the freedom to explore things that I want to do too. Awesome. She’s good.
Steve 49:01
And that just—I mean, what you just described about the feeling I get, the ideas, the energy that I get from spending time with either you guys as coaches or with the other guys in the movement—I feel like I just resonate on an entirely different plane. And that is the powerful thing, I think. And it feels good to lead in the right way, because I don’t feel like I’m domineering or controlling at all. It’s like, yes, I can see that sometimes that’s what you want me to do. It’s like, well, you don’t want to be with someone who’s indecisive, because it’s not attractive at all, is it? And I feel it comes from a good place. And, like I said before, coming here and yesterday—we had such an amazing day. And I was journaling last night. I sort of wrote down, like, this is what I wanted to create. And I actually wrote down, “I feel like I’m a powerful man.” Wrote that down because I did feel that, and it felt really good. It just all clicked into place at that point. So I do feel that—that energy that I take into my business and my family—and it’s wonderful. And I would never have found it by myself.
Doug Holt 50:05
I lied about the last question. What’s one thing you love about Jane? Put you on the spot.
Steve 50:14
I love how she is always there with an enormous spotlight, shining it down on where I can be better. She’s there to push me in the best possible way. I also love her smile. There’s a smile she does, which is just sparky and alive. And I never tire of seeing that.
Doug Holt 50:39
That’s beautiful. What’s one thing you admire about Stephen?
Jane 50:45
Stephen’s a very determined character, and I think he’s shown a lot of bravery by doing this program. I wouldn’t have said that five years ago. In fact, if you’d asked me that question five years ago, I don’t know whether I’d have been able to tell you. But I think it’s inspired me—the bravery to accept, to kind of look at himself and to see where he needed to improve, and to take the steps. And that’s what I love about him now, because it wasn’t there before.
Doug Holt 51:22
That’s awesome. Congratulations to both of you. I mean, Jane, it’s been—I’ve said this before, I’m gonna say it again because I mean it—it’s been awesome, an absolute pleasure to get a chance to meet you and spend a little bit of time with you and your amazing family and your kids. So likewise, thank you also for being brave and courageous and coming on here, and not necessarily knowing what we’re going to talk about. That takes a lot. And you, my brother—I mean, I feel like I’ve had a bond with you since 2020 when I got a chance to walk alongside you, your journey at the T.A.R. and the other events, the Alpha Rising, and everything else. I have seen the changes in this man. And it hurts me a little bit that you thought I would say no.
Steve 52:07
That’s on me. That’s not—that’s in my head. But thank you, because I just thank you for seeing potential in me. Because when I started, I couldn’t see it. I didn’t know where it was going to go, but you and Tim and the other coaches saw something and have helped to draw it out, and my life is so much better as a result.
Doug Holt 52:27
I love that. That makes it all worth it for me. Thank you guys again. Thank you. Thank you, gentlemen. As I always say, in the moment of insight, take massive action. And this was just another example of an amazing family. Jane has shared so much relevance. Guys, you know I may say it, but now you’re hearing it directly from a woman’s point of view. Not that Jane is speaking for all women around the world—I don’t want to put that pressure on her—but she’s speaking for herself and for her girlfriends or friends about what they’re looking for in a man. And for some of us, it takes us hearing it a number of times to get it through. And then Stephen has shared with you his journey and what it’s done for him. And guys, I want for you what this amazing couple has. Again, it’s not always perfect. My marriage isn’t always perfect, but it gets better the more I work on it. And it’s like anything else. At the end of the day, when I’m sitting in my rocking chair, when I look back, I want to look back at a good relationship, or at least knowing that I tried my best to have a great relationship with my wife and certainly be a great role model for my children. And I want that for you guys as well. Take care, and we’ll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.
