Episode #963
What if the fear of rocking the boat is exactly what’s sinking your relationship?
Too many men are quietly stuck—avoiding tough conversations, tiptoeing around decisions, and hoping things somehow just…get better. But that hesitation? It’s costing you your peace, your leadership, and the connection you crave with your wife.
In this episode, Chris Hansen and I get real about what’s actually holding men back. We dig into how fear shows up in marriage, how indecision slowly erodes intimacy, and why taking back leadership doesn’t mean being a jerk—it means showing up.
You’ll hear stories from real coaching conversations where men were scared to set boundaries, afraid to commit to change, or just stuck in that familiar “messy middle.” We break down the identity traps, the ego plays, and the excuses that keep men stuck—and what to do instead.
.Whether you’re feeling stuck in your marriage, your career, or your own head—this one’s for you. It’s time to stop sitting on the fence and start stepping into the man you know you’re capable of being.
She used to look at you like you were her world. Want that again? It starts here → thepowerfulman.com/scales
You can’t fake connection—but you can rebuild it, stronger than before.
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Transcription
Christopher Hansen 0:00
Yeah, I had a conversation today. I’d love to share that. He was needing to have that conversation and the boundaries. And in that, I said, “What’s the worst case?” And he said, “She’s gonna tell me to leave.” And I said, “Okay, what happens if you leave?” And he goes, “I might have peace in my life for the first time.” And I was like, wow. Yeah, right.
Doug Holt 0:19
I’ve heard that so many times, or things like that. You’re like, I think you should be having that conversation.
Hey guys, welcome back to the TPM Show. Hey look, have you ever felt stuck, kind of lost, or feeling like you just don’t know what the next move is, or just afraid to make that next move? Well, today I got Chris here, and Chris runs the Navigate program for TPM. And Chris and I were talking about offline—what exactly is that feeling, and how do you get past it? And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Chris, thanks for being here, man.
Christopher Hansen 0:59
Yeah, thanks for having me, Doug. This is a conversation that I have on all of the sales calls. The guys are coming in, they’re having troubles in their relationships, and they’re lost, and they are looking for a map or a way to get from point A to point B, but they don’t necessarily know how. Or they do, and they’re just scared.
Doug Holt 1:20
Yeah, the latter seems to be the most, right? They kind of know it’s the right steps. That’s why they’re on the call with you, right? They’re saying, “Hey, is this program going to help me? Is it not going to help me?” They’re in decision mode a lot of times. And—which is ironic—because the guys that are going through the Navigate program that you run are men that are struggling in their relationship, right? Struggling in their marriage.
And one of the biggest things that we see with men when they’re struggling with their marriage is they’re lacking leadership in the relationship. And their wife has to—most times—has to take on a more masculine or dominant role, which causes conflict in there. And one of the reasons she needs to take on that dominant, confident role is because he’s not making the decisions. He’s abdicated responsibility to her. He’s given the power to his wife. Or he’s just said, “I don’t know, where do you want to go to dinner, Chris? I don’t know, where do you want to go? I don’t know, I don’t care.” And they get in this—stuck in this—this loop with no polarity.
So why do we get in that, right? So why do we get scared to ask the girl out? Scared to have that conversation with our wife? Scared to ask for a raise from our boss? Scared to start that new business idea that we’ve been, you know, noodling over for the last five years, telling our buddies we were going to start over beers, yet haven’t taken any action, yeah?
So I think it’s identity. And you mentioned a couple others offline. Scared to go to the gym, right? Fear of failure. What if I fail? And I think it’s an identity play. This is something I’ve been coaching on for a long, long time. And it came to me because I had so many people around me—I mean, you’re an entrepreneur, I’m an entrepreneur—say, “Oh man, it’s so interesting that you just start, you can start a company, you know, right away and jump into it.” Or, “I have this business idea, I’ve had it for five years,” and I always wondered, well, why haven’t they started it? Why haven’t they taken that leap and just done it?
To me, it’s just a natural thing that you would just do. And what I came to, Chris, over decades of this at this point, is people like the idea of the dream, and they’re scared if they don’t achieve the idea of the dream, then they’ll lose that feeling.
So an example might be—I’m gonna use a travel one—like always going to go backpacking New Zealand. And you know, I just picture the forest, the lushness, going through, the feeling of the rain, sometimes the sun, the ocean, no people around, just this pristine environment. I love that idea. It excites me. It gives me passion. I love picturing Doug out there backpacking and conquering nature.
Now, the reason I don’t just book a ticket and go to New Zealand—and there’s other issues that come through—is, well, subconsciously, “Well, what if it’s not like that? What if it’s not as good?” So instead of risking losing this dream, of this passion and excitement and adventure, I’m just going to keep thinking about it, because that’s easy and makes me feel good. I get easy dopamine, yeah.
And so it’s the same thing with taking action. For a lot of guys, it’s easier to sit on the fence and think, “Whoa, to be—you know what, man, when I get down to 10% body fat, chicks aren’t gonna keep their hands off me. It’s gonna be amazing. My wife’s gonna, you know, ravage my body all the time.”
And the reason they don’t go for it is, one, it could be hard. Two, if I fail, what does that mean about me? Three, if I get there and then my wife still doesn’t want to ravish my body—oh, maybe she just doesn’t like me. It’s not the extra five pounds or 10 pounds I put on.
Christopher Hansen 5:09
Makes sense. I mean, it’s your identity, your ego. You build this up in your head, and it’s like going to the gym, right? Like, you know you want that, you know you’re going to feel good about that, but you also know that it’s not going to—that feeling—there’s a little uncomfortableness that has to be in there all the time. And the fantasy doesn’t have to be uncomfortable.
Doug Holt 5:28
One of the businesses I had for a very long time—started in my 20s—was a training studio in Santa Barbara, California, and I would hear people talk about, “Well, I don’t wanna start a diet because I’m just gonna break it anyway,” right? I would hear that all the time. And really what they’re saying is a fear of failure.
But I like this, my identity of being this person, right? This person that I am, right? The two most powerful words in the English language—anything after that becomes who you believe yourself to be. “I am somebody who fails on diets. I am this.” So then they sit in the messy middle, and they’re not willing to go after it, even though they might stumble, fall, and have to start over again. They’re scared.
And they do this in their relationships too. “I’m not going to have that conversation with my wife because she might get mad at me or yell at me.” So I’m going to sit here and do nothing and just hope it gets better. And it’s the fear of that identity play. Because if she does get mad at me, what does that mean to you?
So here’s how this plays out in a coaching environment. Maybe a guy comes to me and says, “Hey, yeah, I just—I don’t want to talk to my wife about boundaries,” like the podcast we did earlier. “Okay, why don’t you?” “Yeah, I just think she’s gonna get mad if I tell her this thing.” “Okay, if she gets mad, what does that mean to you?”
Right? And that’s the heart of that step that most people don’t take. “What does that mean?” “Well, if she gets mad, then the house is gonna be disruptive. And, you know, she’s not gonna talk to me. We’re not gonna have sex.” “Okay, what does that mean to you?” Right? “What does that mean about you?” And eventually, it comes down to, “Well, if that happens, then I’m not good enough.”
“Okay, so you’re not talking to your wife about boundaries because if it doesn’t go well, you’re not good enough. So you don’t want to face that reality of not being good enough—or the possibility of that identity play. So therefore, you’ll sit in the messy middle—or in this—this basically limbo, to do it, because you don’t want your identity to be challenged, because you think you are worth it, but there’s a little part of you that’s worried over here that the world might reflect back that you’re not.”
Christopher Hansen 7:37
Yeah, I love that, Doug. I actually—I needed to hear everything you just said. This is so good, yeah. And that middle ground is where you just don’t make a decision, you just float around. And it’s like—that’s that lost feeling, yes. And so what do you do to make that step forward? Like, what do you—when you’re stuck there and you’re afraid?
Doug Holt 7:58
There’s two things, man. For me, I just have to jump. Hesitation is a killer. I learned that playing sports, you know, so I use the sports analogy, because a lot of the guys can get it. So, playing soccer—I was a sweeper, and I played into my mid 30s—and I wouldn’t get hurt as much as a lot of the other guys, because what I figured out is when I was going for what’s called a 50/50 ball—so that means 50% chance you’re gonna get it, 50% the other guy’s gonna get it—when you pause and think about it, “Oh, I don’t want to go in, I don’t want to stick in and go for the ball,” or anything like that, that’s when you hesitate. Those guys got hurt all the time. Yeah.
When you just jump in and run for it and go without hesitation, those guys don’t get hurt usually. And I started seeing this a lot in my life—in just car accidents and things. It’s the hesitation to make the turn, or what have you, that got a lot of people. But it also happens in life. And that hesitation is that pause. So when something comes up that I’m scared about—maybe it’s a phone call, you know, or something’s going to come up—when you got here, I had a difficult conversation, but I didn’t wait. I knew that conversation had to happen, and it happened quickly, so I just did it.
So sometimes you have to kind of outsmart yourself. Mel Robbins—you familiar with her at all?
Christopher Hansen 9:26
No.
Doug Holt 9:27
Okay, she’s written some books. She’s in the kind of self-help, personal development space. I like her. She has kind of a no-nonsense approach. And she has this thing where you count down from 5—5, 4, 3, 2, 1—go. And so you just give yourself those five seconds. But as kids, we’ve always had that countdown, right?
Christopher Hansen 9:44
Yeah.
Doug Holt 9:45
It’s like jumping off a cliff. And yeah, I distinctly remember looking down—I was jumping off a cliff one time—and people are like, “3, 2, 1, go,” right? It’s common. They do it all over the world. And that helps our brain. So that’s one way you can do it.
The other way—like, if I’m as a coach and working through it—I’ll back that down, what I just did. Like, what does it mean to you? What does it mean about—what are you making it mean if your wife says your boundaries are stupid?
Christopher Hansen 10:16
Yeah.
Doug Holt 10:17
What does that mean? What do you make—? And it comes down to this: “Well, then I’m not good enough.” Okay, now we get to work on that. Because if I don’t work on that with a man, then that’s going to be the underlying current of his entire conversation, all of his decisions.
Christopher Hansen 10:31
Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, there’s two types of guys that I see in this world—like, the ones that will jump, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go, and the ones that will stand there, yeah, on that cliff—I don’t know. And it comes down to that self-confidence.
Doug Holt 10:44
This is something that’s interesting. I heard Ryan Peach talk about this recently to a guy. “I don’t care if you jump or don’t jump, but don’t just stand on the cliff. Just go, ‘No, I don’t jump today.'” Turn around, walk away.
He used a different analogy, but, you know, because I would be the guy on the cliff. You go, “5, 4, 3, 2, 1,” and I’ll go, “Screw you, I’m out. I’m afraid of heights. I’m not doing this.”
Christopher Hansen 11:04
Yeah.
Doug Holt 11:05
And I think people have more respect for that guy versus the guy who just stands there and goes, “Okay, countdown again. Countdown again. Countdown again. Countdown again.”
Christopher Hansen 11:14
I’ve noticed that with the guys—that I have to quickly identify, are they jumpers or not, right? And when they’re not—
Doug Holt 11:21
Hey guys, I just want to share something with you. I’m sure we can both agree that in order to fix something, you need to know what’s broken. And not only do you need to know what’s broken, but a step-by-step methodology on how you can fix it. That’s the easiest way to do it, right?
Otherwise, you’re gonna be toiling with things. That’s why I created a free training—a training that not only shows you how you got to where you are, where your relationship is missing that love, respect, admiration, and even intimacy that it used to have—but how you get it back. How do you retain that, where your wife’s looking at you the same way she used to look at you when she said, “I do”?
You know, I don’t know about you, but for me, when my wife looks at me like I’m her man, I feel like I can conquer the world. And I want that for you. Simply go over to thepowerfulman.com/scales. That’s thepowerfulman.com/scales, and I have a free video training for you. You can just click play and see if this resonates for you. Now, back to the podcast.
Christopher Hansen 12:14
We have to backpedal a little bit and be like, “Okay, I want you to do this, but you’re not doing it.” You just—I need to start visualizing what this looks like first. You don’t have to jump yet, but it’s almost—we take smaller steps to get into walking up to that cliff.
Doug Holt 12:29
And there’s this idea of, like, black box thinking, which is, what’s the worst thing that’s gonna happen? So I’ll use this—boundaries with the wife. “Hey, you need to have a conversation with your wife about boundaries.” And the guy goes, “Oh no, because, you know, I’m not ready to.”
“So why not?” “She might get mad at me.” “Okay, so what does that mean? What’s—?” You know, kind of go through a thing. “What’s the worst thing that’s going to happen?” “She’s going to yell, scream, and we’re not going to have sex.”
“Okay, you told me you’re not having sex now, right?” So now you got yelling and screaming involved. “What’s the worst that’s going to happen if she’s yelling and screaming at you?” “Well, she’s gonna get mad, and it’s gonna ruin my whole day.” “You know how your day is going now?”
Like, let’s go through a worst-case scenario. And most times when I do that, Chris, and I go through the actual worst-case scenario, it’s not that bad as they built it up to be.
So here’s another one as an example. I went into a dermatologist before we started recording. I have very fair skin. Grew up in California and even in the mountains, so I always have to get something frozen off or cut off or what have you. And the woman’s like, “Hey, you want to just do this today? We’ll do a couple of biopsies.” And I was like, “Yeah.”
She’s like, “Are you going to be okay?” You know, talk about pain medicine or anything like that. I go, “You know what? It’s not painful. It’s the anticipation that gets me.” You know? It’s the anticipation of the needle shot. The anticipation—it never hurts. It never hurts, at least as bad as I think it’s going to.
But it’s the anticipation. Each and every time I think, “Okay, I’m about to get a shot.” It’s the mind going. And they’re like, “It’s in.” Like, “Oh, you’re done?”
Christopher Hansen 14:01
It’s like the same when we’re having these hard conversations or when we go to worst-case scenario in our heads. It generally never goes that way in real life anyway, you know?
Doug Holt 14:09
I can tell you, based on my experience—the phone call I just had—I’ve learned to run, run towards tough conversations because I know what’s going to happen on the other side of it, right? I’ve learned that people are making up stories—I’m definitely making up stories—about how that conversation is going to turn out, but they usually turn out better at the end. And it’s good to have the tools. We teach that in the connection that we teach through the program. If you have those tools, those conversations go so much smoother.
But it’s just like anything else. Like, you and I have operated a lot of businesses in our career, so I have a lot of confidence in my ability to start and run, scale a company, just because I have that historical evidence. I still may have trepidation of doing it, but those nerves are based on some experience and some other things that come through, and I’ve rebuilt my identity.
My identity is—since I’ve been, gosh, early 20s—I’ve had multiple companies that I’ve either owned or worked for or invested in. I mean, I haven’t had a real job since I was 23 or worked for another person.
Christopher Hansen 15:44
Yeah?
Doug Holt 15:45
So yeah, you think about—you change your identity. So you can change your identity to a man who has difficult conversations. You can change your identity to a man who rushes towards the fear. I’ve seen people do this—like the most timid men—change how they identify themselves, and then they take on that challenge.
Christopher Hansen 16:04
Yeah, I had a conversation today. I’d love to share—that he was needing to have that conversation and the boundaries. And in that, I said, “What’s the worst case?” And he said, “She’s gonna tell me to leave.” And I said, “Okay, what happens if you leave?” And he goes, “I might have peace in my life for the first time.” And I was like, wow.
Doug Holt 16:23
I’ve heard that so many times—things like that. You’re like, “I think you should be having that conversation.”
And you know, so you take the calls from the men that are interested—they’re non-business owners. So we have two tracks within The Powerful Man. We’ve always—last eight years—it’s been business owners and C-suite executives only. And just recently, we’ve had so many—our mission is to help more men—we’ve had so many men who are like, “I want to be in the program, just not a business owner.”
So we opened up what we call the Navigate track, right? For these men. It’s a different group, slightly different training program, but very aligned with what we’re doing. And so you’re taking those calls. And every time I’ve taken those calls in the past, the number one thing is—you talk to a guy like, “Okay, I think this is going to help you. I think this is going to be a good fit on the program. You know, you’ve seen our material, you’ve listened to us, you’ve seen the thousand…” Well, it’s not a thousand—I don’t know how many testimonials we have. A lot. We’ve been doing this for a long time.
“Are you ready to move forward?” The number one objection: “I need to talk. I need to talk to my wife.”
“Okay, cool. Why?”
“Well, you know…”
They’re scared. They’re scared of what their wife is going to say when they make a commitment. And it’s either a financial commitment or a time commitment, or both, right? Both. All those things come up.
But it’s the classic thing—they’re scared of their wife and what their wife is going to say. Now, switch that around real quick. I talk about this particular interview we did with couples. So Colton, who does our video and podcasting production—he and I drove around and interviewed a number of couples. In fact, we met you on that trip.
And there was one couple in particular—friggin’ awesome people, man, I love these guys. And we were there, and the wife recounted the story—I tell this a lot on the podcast. It was so impactful to me to actually see the way her energy changed.
He said, “Hey, I’m going to do this program.” And she basically said, “The hell you are.”
And he said, “No, I’m doing it.”
He walked up the stairs, and she said this exactly. She said, “I can’t tell you how effing sexy that was,” because he took leadership, right? And he took passion.
And had he been like, “Well, I’m scared of my wife,” he would— you know, all these things—his marriage and his family wouldn’t be where they are today.
Christopher Hansen 18:24
When those calls—and you get to that point, and you’re asking them if they’re ready to go—they’ve gone so long without making decisions…
Doug Holt 18:30
Yeah.
Christopher Hansen 18:31
…because their wives have. And now they’re put into a really big decision for themselves. And they—it’s really—you really have to keep asking them, because they don’t know. They’re having a tough time with it.
Doug Holt 18:43
And I can see that. And I think we get to remind the guys that, “Hey dude, this is what got you into trouble in the first place,” right?
You’ve abdicated all responsibility to your wife. How much pressure is that for one person?
And guys, you’re gonna hate me for this—and a lot of you guys are gonna turn this off—but you’ve become another child in the house. And I’ve heard so many women say this: “I just have a big, grown child now. I don’t have a man.”
And what does she do? She’s gonna start looking for a man. And unless you step up and become that guy—and it doesn’t mean you be a jerk, it doesn’t mean you violate boundaries—but you make decisions. You make decisions for both of you.
I can’t tell you how many times, Chris, that when my wife and I are talking about something, like going someplace or anything, she’s like, “Honestly, I just want you to make all the decisions. I just want to be able to be free flowing.”
I’m like, “Cool. I got this.”
You know? And she can’t question my decisions—
Christopher Hansen 19:36
Yeah.
Doug Holt 19:37
—at that point, right?
Christopher Hansen 19:38
I’ll have one-on-one with the guys, and we’ll talk about date night and what that looks like. And I say, I’m telling you right now, she doesn’t want to make a decision.
Doug Holt 19:48
Yeah, you tell her what clothes to wear. You pick them out for her—just tell her, “Wear this,” or tell her the type of clothes, at least. Tell her what time to be ready. Give her a cushion. Guys, feminine energy is not gonna be on time. So if you want her in the car by 6 p.m., tell her 5:45 or 5:30, you know? Give her some cushion. And then pick the restaurant, right? And if you’ve never done this before, it’s fun. Bold move—order her food for her, you know? And that’s a fun thing. Order her beverage. It doesn’t have to be alcoholic, but order—do all the ordering for her. Take care of the bill. Decide where you’re going afterward.
Christopher Hansen 20:25
Yeah, being this—ordering the food—was one that I did that I did not realize how impactful it was. Yes. And every time something came out, she cried.
Doug Holt 20:31
Yeah.
Christopher Hansen 20:32
Because she felt seen. Because I knew what she wanted. I knew what she did, right?
Doug Holt 20:37
Yeah, yeah. It can feel awkward, right, at first. But one is, it’s ordering for somebody else, but also the waitstaff sometimes looks at you like, “What’s going on?”
Christopher Hansen 20:44
I did. I pre-wrote it down, and so I slipped it to the hostess and said, “Hey, we have food allergies. Can you run it this way?” They just ran it down the list. And it would be great, too, because you don’t get interrupted during that conversation, because you’re getting dropped off as you go.
Doug Holt 20:57
Really, that’s slick, man, for sure. This is why the community’s so awesome within TPM. So we have our own private app, as you know, and within that, you get guys that share things like this. I’m definitely stealing that one. That’s a good one. Yeah, that’s an alpha move. I like that a lot.
One thing—I just don’t like it all the time—when the waiters keep coming by. You have a waiter that checks on you too much. I appreciate what they’re trying to do. And, you know, I’d almost rather just have an iPad or something. I’ll tap it when I need somebody.
Christopher Hansen 21:28
Yeah, a lot of times, on those dates, you’re looking to get into those deep, intimate conversations, and right in the middle of that: “Do you guys need some more wine?”
Doug Holt 21:38
Yes. And I know how to pour myself. 100%. I love this conversation.
So what are three things guys could do that say, “Man, I’m just feeling stuck,” or, “I’m afraid to make that move”?
Christopher Hansen 21:53
Make sure you just have the confidence to take some action. Just move forward. I mean, that’s the—I think that’s the most common thing we always say: just do something. Like, just don’t stay in there. You don’t have to figure it out by yourself. Like, go find some help. There’s—there’s a ton—not just our program—there’s a lot of help out there that you can go to.
Start asking questions. You don’t have to commit to signing up to anything. Ask questions. Yeah. And just that—at least you’re moving in a different direction.
Doug Holt 22:20
Yeah. I’ll leave one more. I’ll ask you guys this question.
So I want you guys to think of something that you’re stuck in between. Maybe it’s joining The Activation Method, right? Or maybe it’s starting a new company. I don’t know what it is. Just think of something that you’re stuck with.
Now think about this: you’re now a hero in a movie—your own movie, your life. You’re the hero. What does he do?
And go with that. Your gut knows. Your gut knows the right move to make.
Christopher Hansen 22:50
The hero always jumps off the cliff.
Doug Holt 22:52
Always jumps off the cliff. 100%. Awesome. Brother, always good having conversations with you, man. Appreciate it.
Christopher Hansen 22:59
Yeah, you got it.
Doug Holt 23:00
Gentlemen, as we say, always take massive action in the moment of insight. I said that backwards, but you get the idea.
And also, what is your hero going to do? Right? The hero of your life— is he going to take action? Is he going to sit on the fence?
You know that whole—I always picture this—that guy with one foot on the dock, one foot on the boat, and the boat starts to leave. I don’t know about you guys, but I’m not that flexible anymore. So if that starts to happen, I’m in the water.
Make a decision, right? Again, what does the hero in your movie do?
You are the hero—the hero of your own journey, the author of your own story, so to speak. And make sure you write a good one, and we’ll see you next time on The Powerful Man Show.
